Emirate Xaaron-3
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Ate you alive since you were a child/That's when the monster first appeared in you
Posts: 162
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Post by Emirate Xaaron-3 on Feb 7, 2008 9:39:42 GMT -5
Emirate Xaaron shakes his head and corrects gently, "Good and evil are just words with definitions assigned by whoever is using them. To you, good is stopping the Decepticons. Then, to the Decepticons, good is accomplishing whatever their goals happen to be. To each other, you are evil. "
"Meaning is assigned by those capable of generating meaning. The universe will not provide meaning for you. You may assume that there are certain gods to the universe, who would have the potential to define universal meanings to good an evil. However, each religion has its holy books, miracles, and proponents as support, and each has its detractors. Is a miracle of water to energon better than a miracle of rust to batteries? Or are both miracles simply tricks? It is impossible to know which religion, if any, is correct, and one must always teeter on the edge of uncertainty."
Personally, Emirate Xaaron believes in Unicron, but he is aware that it is simply a belief, and he could be wrong. Unicron could simply be advanced technology and not a deity. Emirate Xaaron would be crushed, if he's wrong. He suspects hell be crushed even if he's right, however.
"So what kind of life is it without anything to believe in and no fixed concept of right or wrong? Without the assumption of higher meaning, life is simply a process that arose out of random interactions. It is, and after a while, it is not. There is nothing grand or wonderful about it. It does not matter if it ends a million years from now or it ends this very second."
Skyfire receives a wary glance and a guarded nod of the head before Emirate Xaaron replies softly, "Idle debate, of no consequence." Nothing is, in the end.
Arcee, however, insists on clinging to her absolutist worldview, but he has an answer for her. He folds his hands behind his back and inquires, "Murder is wrong, then? Always? Say that you came upon your Megatron, who I am given to understand is something like my Prime. You have found your Megatron dozed off into a light recharge nap. Trying to restrain him for 'fair trial' would surely wake him, and he would kill you painfully. If you wait to call in reinforcements to help you, he will likely wake and, again, kill you. You could, however, kill him there and then. Quick and easy. It would be cold-blooded murder, but to prevent all the death and pain he would inevitably cause, would you call it wrong?"
Emirate Xaaron is feeling more anxious, now that there are more people. Looking at him, it'd be impossible to say who, exactly triggered it. It was number, not the people. Skyfire's a rather horrific person – talk about reprogramming! – but Emirate Xaaron is not a jet, so he generally accounts himself safe. Pee-Dee is scarier to Emirate Xaaron. She was always interested in doing things to him that he did not want done.
He takes a few steps back and looks to Arcee uncertainly.
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Bluestreak
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Silence is golden, but the motormouth is silver...
Posts: 213
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Post by Bluestreak on Feb 7, 2008 16:28:02 GMT -5
Bluestreak frowns at Xaaron's answer, though he doesn't interrupt it. Once the alternate-Emirate is done talking, however, he answers in as even a voice as he can muster.
"I'm sorry, Xaaron sir, but I can't accept a world where there's no right and no wrong," he replies. "Maybe if I'd heard this argument before my home was destroyed, I might have accepted it. But right now... right now I guess the two of us just have to agree to disagree. Because we both have the right to believe what we want about the universe. 'Freedom is the right of all sentient species,' after all."
He waves at the others. "See you 'round Arcee, Skyfire, Pee-Dee. I'm at the showers if you need me." And he transforms and is gone.
OOC: Blue's out of thread
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Skyfire
Major
I'm a scientist, not a....
Posts: 891
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Post by Skyfire on Feb 7, 2008 17:19:22 GMT -5
Skyfire shakes his head and gives the foreign Emirate a wry smile. "Oh, moral relativism. Starscream and I used to debate that one for hours on long trips. He had an additional clause: since there is no objective right or wrong, subjective right or wrong is based on what's good for the self. Therefore, the greatest good was what was best for Starscream.1"
"Needless to say, I disagreed. It was an entertaining way to pass the light-years. I've probably heard most of the arguments on either side of the debate, but do go on. Short of a direct spiritual experience to the contrary, it's an unresolvable debate. Practically, individuals will find their own justification for whatever system of ethics and morality they adhere to," Skyfire says.
"As for me personally?" Skyfire spreads his hands and smiles. "I happen to believe that survival of both individuals and of a healthy, friendly, pleasant-to-live-in society is good. Creativity, friendship, compassion, freedom, wisdom--these are some of the individual traits that make a good society possible, and belong to the type of people whose company I enjoy."
He drops his hands to his side. "I've travelled, and seen enough of the galaxy to know that there's a lot of interesting surprises out there, and sometimes you need individual traits that not everyone finds agreeable to deal with 'surprises'. That's why freedom matters; it allows individuals who may not fit the popular mold to exist and thrive. Freedom includes the freedom to be an unlikeable, contrary bastard, because sometimes, you need a bastard."
Skyfire turns a bit more stern: "I'm pretty tolerant, but I draw the line where my freedom and survival are concerned, or those of friends and innocent civilians. Don't make the mistake of thinking I'm a pacifist. I can't comment on the Megatron example, as I've never met the mech--but if you shoot at me, I will most assuredly shoot back." "You sound a bit like Dead End, you know..."
--- 1 Philosophical views of Skyfire's Golden Age Starscream not necessarily those of current Deadzone Starscream, now, then, or ever. Timelines are parallel, not necessarily the same. *append vigorous handwaving*.
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Arcee
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Posts: 330
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Post by Arcee on Feb 11, 2008 10:55:02 GMT -5
((My apologies for having lost this one, guys.))
All things considered, Arcee's not positive she could kill Megatron even if he was sleeping. Certainly, her firepower is fairly minimal, possibly not even enough to do more than wake him up.
"Would killing Megatron like that make the world a better place? Probably. Though I'm tempted to think that if he died, the Decepticon power struggle that happened next would be even worse for everyone."
Easy to think that lots of innocents would get caught in the crossfire. "But I don't know... I don't think I could do it. If only because the Decepticons would have no qualms about doing the same thing. And we've got to be better than them."
Odd, she'd forgotten that Skyfire and Starscream used to be friends. When the one's been trying to kill you off and on for years, it's hard to think of them as anything but monsters. Maybe her world-view is a little black and white, but it's just the way she is.
"I'm not sure you ever need a bastard, Skyfire... But I respect their right to be one."
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Post by Pee-Dee on Feb 11, 2008 11:40:52 GMT -5
Pee-Dee wriggles back and forth a bit on her wheels. Oh, they were getting into one of the more annoying questions the Junkions had ever faced. Fortunately, they'd mostly figured out an answer.
"Good is ensuring the most people are happy than are unhappy. Good is creating things to bring pleasure or ensure the survival of the body and soul. Good does not derive pleasure from pain, save consensual pain. Good is rough and polished, dull and bright, bitter and happy. It makes the world better for the vast multitude, and it protects from those who would indulge their selfishness to the detriment of others."
Good and evil have been synthesized from a lot of TV programs, combined and recombined until it made sense. It wasn't perfect, but it made the Junkions happy and it served them well.
And really, what else did they need?
"I wouldn't murder Megatron in his sleep," Pee-Dee adds, "But I'm a cop. We're not supposed to do that kind of thing."
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Emirate Xaaron-3
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Ate you alive since you were a child/That's when the monster first appeared in you
Posts: 162
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Post by Emirate Xaaron-3 on Feb 13, 2008 18:03:52 GMT -5
Bluestreak is blind. That is pity. Then again, the Autobots have a habit of putting to death those who really see. Perhaps these Autobots are different in that respect, but even good men tend to have issues with Devourists. Hopeless optimists have trouble with the idea that some worlds need to be devoured.
He mutters, "I would never mistake you for a pacifist," but that is a slip. Skyfire doesn't need to know what Emirate Xaaron knows about Skyfire's duplicate. Emirate Xaaron hasn't offered to help these people; Swerve did. He does, however, take note of the comparison to Dead End. He would never think to compare himself to the katana-wielding Stunticon. Clearly, this Dead End must possess a more dour viewpoint.
If the world doesn't need a bastard, Emirate Xaaron's counterpart is in for a rude awakening, not that Emirate Xaaron knows it yet.
Emirate Xaaron shrugs and comments, "Living in a morality-based worldview is comforting to you. There are other options out there. I will say, however – if killing Megatron while he sleeps would make you as bad as him, would you stop, ah... helping rebuild Terran cities damaged by your wars if the Decepticons started helping rebuild Terran cities? Defining yourself as not X is tricky, if X changes."
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Skyfire
Major
I'm a scientist, not a....
Posts: 891
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Post by Skyfire on Feb 13, 2008 19:30:19 GMT -5
This Skyfire is distinctively lacking a fawning Decepticon Seeker following him around and being idly patted on the head. On the other hand, that Skyfire was never Starscream's partner.
"Defining one's self as Not X has serious problems, as you've pointed out. That's why I know what I'm for, and what I consider not acceptable. I know who I am. My morality isn't beholden to what Substandatron1 over there thinks, says or does."
Skyfire gives the foreign Emirate a considering look. "So what are you for, Emirate Other-Xaaron? I suspect from your line of argument that you are not a moral absolutist, but all the moral relativists I've known had a personal morality of their own--they just didn't think it necessarily applied to other people. What's good and evil for you?"
--- 1Substandatron - "Joe Sixpack" in Transformers idiom. *makes it up on the spot*
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Arcee
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Post by Arcee on Feb 13, 2008 20:06:59 GMT -5
Arcee shakes her head. "I'm just remembering something Carly said once, something some human philosopher once said. "He who fights monsters should take care not to become one.'"
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Post by Pee-Dee on Feb 13, 2008 20:36:12 GMT -5
Pee-Dee twists her front wheel back and forth to look at each speaker in turn. None of them appear to have anything to say to her, though, and this is not a topic she cares about. So she slews around and zips off, honking merrily.
---
Pee-Dee out of thread unless called back.
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Emirate Xaaron-3
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Ate you alive since you were a child/That's when the monster first appeared in you
Posts: 162
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Post by Emirate Xaaron-3 on Feb 14, 2008 13:56:34 GMT -5
...philosophy scares off Pee-Dee? Success! If only that worked on the real Pee-Dee, Emirate Xaaron would be a happy person.
Okay, he'd still suffer from a lot of doubts and fears. He'd be happier. Emirate Xaaron still wouldn't dare to actually be happy. It's a luxury he cannot afford, and it invites having his day ruined. His day can't be ruined if it's already rock bottom.
He shrugs and answers Skyfire guardedly, "I'd like to see a peaceful society with arbitration and reasonable rules set up." It's nice. He just doesn't believe it can be done.
He snorts at Arcee and points out, "You didn't answer my question. Would you give up doing something you define as good just because your enemies started doing it?"
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Skyfire
Major
I'm a scientist, not a....
Posts: 891
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Post by Skyfire on Feb 15, 2008 23:20:23 GMT -5
"We had one in places in my day, though perhaps not universally, and we seem to have one here among the Autobots," Skyfire replies to the Other Xaaron. "I have seen alien societies that worked that way."
"One common element of all such societies that I've seen that actually worked? They respected individual freedom, but they didn't tolerate violent anarchy. If a person just couldn't stay within the bounds of peaceful reason, those societies had ways of dealing with them."
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Arcee
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Post by Arcee on Feb 16, 2008 0:43:33 GMT -5
"Must be nice, Skyfire," Arcee says. "I can't even remember a time before the War."
She shakes her head to Xaaron's question. "Not hardly. Just because they're doing it isn't necessarily a reason to stop... But it also doesn't mean just because they're doing something we should do it too."
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Emirate Xaaron-3
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Ate you alive since you were a child/That's when the monster first appeared in you
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Post by Emirate Xaaron-3 on Feb 17, 2008 10:51:09 GMT -5
Emirate Xaaron shakes his head and points out, "But you don’t have a peaceful society here, do you? You're fighting your Decepticons. Because you think it's right. But you're still going to kill other beings who are doing what they believe is right, simply because you disagree with them."
To Arcee, he is forced to argue, "Then I find it a weak justification to say, 'Oh, I won't murder an enemy who will undoubtedly murder countless others, because it would make me as bad as a Decepticon,' if you won't also say, 'Oh, I won't assist with disaster relief, because that would make me as bad as a Decepticon.' I would find it more honest, at least, to say that you won't murder because you are uncomfortable with the idea due to your cultural upbringing, rather than defining your predilictions as due to wanting to be like not a Decepticon."
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Skyfire
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I'm a scientist, not a....
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Post by Skyfire on Feb 19, 2008 14:26:25 GMT -5
"Specious argument, since you're omitting the part where they shot holes in me and tried to kill me, and have stated their intent to enslave or kill my fellow Autobots here. I disagree with their intent to kill me and my friends, yes. I personally would leave them alone if they'd leave us and innocent bystanders alone; I suspect most Autobots feel similarly. We're not about fighting and conquest for the sake of conquest," Skyfire replied.
Skyfire's optics narrowed a bit. "With all due respect, sir, you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting Arcee's arguments. 'Not wanting to be like X' is a well-known linguistic shorthand for 'Not wanting to have the negative traits considered typical of X'. This then opens the field for debating whether X actually has those negative traits, or if said traits are actually negative, but simply saying 'Not wanting to like X must mean you don't want to have any positive traits X may demonstrate' is sophistry, sir."
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Arcee
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Post by Arcee on Feb 19, 2008 14:47:01 GMT -5
Arcee casts a glance up at Skyfire with a small smile. Much better said than you could have put it. Guard duty or nor, Xaaron was getting on her nerves.
"Well, I don't know what sophistry means, but I agree with the rest of what he just said."
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