Shanodin
Major
The Chamberlain, Her Chivalrous Immensity, Lady Botanica. The Unyielding Vanquisher of Weed Killer
This is NOT her field of dreams
Posts: 700
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Post by Shanodin on Apr 3, 2011 20:23:37 GMT -5
"A decent enough summation Cheetor," Botanica says with a nod, "If you planted a tree in a pot like this and just let it go, it would end up looking nothing like a tree. The idea behind the art is to carefully cultivate the growing tree so that it looks like a miniature version of itself."
"It is quite meditative and rewarding as well, especially as your tree takes shape." Botanica cuts her eyes toward Sentinel where he hides in his tree's needles. "It is also a way of slowly imposing one's will upon what is normally a wild process."
"Some cultures prefer to cultivate for fantasy, shaping the trees into fantastic creatures. Others, like myself, prefer to keep their designs more natural."
Botanica takes up a smaller pair of clippers that looks almost like tweezers and begins to nip off leaves. "Now, in regard to ethics- I'm curious. Prowl, Cheetor? How would you define your personal ethics? How do you determine right or wrong?"
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Post by Sentinel Prime on Apr 3, 2011 21:09:23 GMT -5
Sentinel Prime remains worried that Prowl and Botanica are somehow trying to entrap him in tree abuse. He's a bit confused, too. A miniature version of itself? Sentinel Prime's picturing fractal trees all the way down. His head hurts. He asks, "So why put the tree in a pot? Why not just let it go be a tree?"
Unthinkingly, he tugs his potted tree closer to his chest. That's how it'll go, him and and his tree will escape these crazy people and go be free!
No. No, they won't. But it's a nice daydream.
Sentinel Prime squints at Botanica when she talks about imposing one's will on nature. Look, missy, Sentinel Prime is onto your tricks! He points out, "But I thought imposing your will on nature was supposed to be a bad thing. Isn't the point of it just to let it go do what it does?"
Preferably far, far away.
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Post by Prowl on Apr 6, 2011 0:35:05 GMT -5
"Hm..." Prowl taps a finger on the ground next to his plant as he thinks about his morals. "Most of what I learned was learned in my training with my teacher. I use those lessons to form my ideas about right and wrong. As well as what I've learned from those that I live with each day."
He is indeed saying he's learned some interesting things from being around the Autobots and Maximals, even if they are interesting themselves.
Prowl sets the shears down and picks up a small stick and some twine to help shape a branch along the way he favors.
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Cheetor
Cadet
Here he is, your little guy.
Posts: 67
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Post by Cheetor on Apr 7, 2011 3:41:23 GMT -5
Cheetor snips a bit at his tree, then glances over at Sentinel Prime. "Well, in regards to imposing will on the plant, it comes back to balance. Rather like training someone else to do something. You let them try", he says, and motions to his tree, showing a rather long stray branch. "When they mess up, though, you correct it." Cheetor then snips that branch off. "But you don't do it too much or too hard, lest you wind up with a marred plant."
He glances over at Botanica, then makes a bit of a sheepish face. "Er, I don't mean to be taking your questions away. Just seemed like an open forum."
Then the ethics bomb is dropped and Cheetor lowers his clippers, staring up at the ceiling for a moment. "Well... I tend to follow my spark more than a set of rules. Rules are good, but not the be-all-end-all. Don't hurt the innocent, do what you can to help those in need, give everyone a fair chance. Be forgiving, but within reason. Most of that, I learned in basic programming, but it never really sank in until I worked with Big Bot..." Cheetor grins a bit. "Him, and well, the whole crew helped shape my ideals."
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Shanodin
Major
The Chamberlain, Her Chivalrous Immensity, Lady Botanica. The Unyielding Vanquisher of Weed Killer
This is NOT her field of dreams
Posts: 700
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Post by Shanodin on Apr 7, 2011 21:36:52 GMT -5
Careful Sentinel, or Botanica just might hug you for being all protective of the green things!
She waves off Cheetor's apology, "No, that's quite all right. And not a bad analogy, really."
"There are places where the green and growing areas are few and far between, but it is a tendency of many peoples to want some connection to nature near them. This art allows a person to enjoy the beauty and life of the green where the otherwise could not."
"Also, to expand further upon Cheetor's comments, any being- plant or animal- left unchecked has the potential to cause harm. In an established ecosystem, untouched by outside influence, the forest will regulate itself in conjunction with the creatures who call it home. Once anything non-native is introduced, however, everything is thrown off. So we do what we can to help the green maintain balance."
Prowl did not actually answer her question, Botanica notes. Telling where he learned his ethics is not the same as explaining his ethics. She says nothing for now, curious to see if Sentinel catches and comments on the distinction.
"Sentinel, how would Cheetor's ethics fit in amongst those of the average mechanisms of your reality?"
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Post by Sentinel Prime on Apr 7, 2011 21:55:55 GMT -5
"Ah. Okay. So trees can glitch and malfunction, and when they do, someone has to fix it," Sentinel Prime summarises.
He mutters to his bonsai, "Do I look like a tree repair-bot? No, don't answer that." He hopes trees can't imprint. Bots mistaking him for the Twins' father is bad enough as it is!
Sentinel Prime answers more loudly, "Uh... we," and by 'we' he means 'I', "put a lot more emphasis on the rules. It doesn't really matter what results you get. If you get your results the wrong way, you should be busted back to basic programming. No ifs, ands, or buts. Forgiveness is not something..."
He trails off. Where is he even going with this? Sentinel Prime busies himself with checking over his tree some more. Some of the branches are too heavy for it and are starting to strip away from the tree on their own weight. He hesitantly takes the shears Prowl gave him earlier to one of the over-burdened branches. He takes half the branch off, because half seems like an obvious thing to do. Now, do they have any tree glue? Do they even make tree glue?
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Post by Prowl on Apr 8, 2011 11:09:54 GMT -5
Prowl can keep some of his things mysterious, it's in his nature. And also, he really doesn't want to get into a meaningful conversation with Sentinel sitting right there. He doesn't want to get into explaining things further. Trees are enough for the poor mech. Because trees are complicated metaphors if you place them right!
Tree are serious business.
He watches in interest as Sentinel finally ventures to cut a small bit off the tree.
"There you go," he says, nodding. He sits back a bit to look around, letting the nature of the dome inspire him as it may, while he listens to the others.
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Cheetor
Cadet
Here he is, your little guy.
Posts: 67
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Post by Cheetor on Apr 11, 2011 19:09:02 GMT -5
Cheetor snips a bit more here and there, nodding at Sentinel's summary. "That's one way of putting it."
However, he frowns as the blue 'bot answers Botanica's question. "Rules are important to have - they help keep order, but there are times that they should be disregarded. Mostly really extenuating circumstances, to save someone, or help the greater good..." Cheetor's voice is calm and level as he says this, though his attention turns from Sentinel to his tree as he says the last sentence.
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Shanodin
Major
The Chamberlain, Her Chivalrous Immensity, Lady Botanica. The Unyielding Vanquisher of Weed Killer
This is NOT her field of dreams
Posts: 700
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Post by Shanodin on Apr 14, 2011 0:10:31 GMT -5
"Either the end justifies the means, or the means justifies the end," Botanica says casually, "It's all about one's point of view and what one considers 'right'."
"Take, for example, what Prowl did for his Dinobots. Of course, he may correct me, but it is my understanding that he went against both Optimus's decision and the decision of the human authorities to save them. He saved them from deactivation despite the harm and destruction they caused."
"Again, he may correct me, but based on my observations, this was done because Prowl places a high value on life."
"Compare that to Cheetor's decision to destroy an un-reformatted Nightscream's only source of sustenance thereby forcing Nightscream to accept a reformat into a technorganic form." Yes, Botanica is leaving out a key bit of info here. She's doing it on purpose.
"He did this," she smiles slightly, "and this I have firsthand, because he viewed it as the only way to save his dearest friends."
Now she looks from at each of the mechs in turn. "One risked harm to many with his decision, the other risked the death of one. But were they the correct choices?"
Botanica snips carefully at her tree as she finishes speaking. She's cast a pebble into the lake. Time to see what ripples it makes.
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Post by Sentinel Prime on Apr 14, 2011 0:27:03 GMT -5
"If you cross the line once, the line is broken, and it's not a line anymore," Sentinel Prime opines to Cheetor.
He fiddles with the overburdened branch that he snipped. It's still stripped away from the trunk a bit. Sentinel Prime grabs some twine and sort of make a sling for it. Maybe it'll grow back together that way?
Sentinel Prime is reaching for the shears, so he can go after another overburdened branch when... he drops the shears on the table and sputters, "...are we talking about the same Optimus? He tried to execute Autobots? That... doesn't sound like him."
He looks from Botanica to Prowl questioningly. At this point, Sentinel Prime doesn't really care about what Cheetor did. Yes, the concept of Optimus executing anyone is more distressing to him than Cheetor forcing some random 'bot into a loathsome technorganic form. Optimus is someone Sentinel Prime knows. Optimus is the nice, sane one!
"...I mean, Optimus tried to introduce me to the Dinobots. That's... not something you do with 'bots you tried to have killed..."
Sentinel Prime is phrasing that situation in a funny way.
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Post by Prowl on Apr 14, 2011 23:41:27 GMT -5
Prowl nods slowly and keeps steadily watching Sentinel. "Yes, Optimus deemed the Dinobots a threat, even though I told him I sensed a spark of life in their bodies. He agreed with Sumdac in that they needed to be destroyed... Melted down for scrap." Prowl shakes his head and turns his gaze towards his tree again, and then Sentinel's sad little tree. He's trying, that's something.
"I had to acquire Bulkhead's help in freeing them from the tar they had trapped themselves in, and then brought them to an island where they would be safe," he nodded once. "And I could feel that I did the right thing then."
Prowl leans back, "I'm not sure the Optimus here ever even knew the Dinobots before I brought up the subject to him. He is also different than the Optimus you knew."
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Cheetor
Cadet
Here he is, your little guy.
Posts: 67
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Post by Cheetor on Apr 18, 2011 7:55:43 GMT -5
Cheetor nods solemnly at Sentinel. "That's true, but sometimes, there's those who you would cross the line for, consequences be slagged."
He was going to protest about what Botanica said, but Prowl and Sentinel start in about the Dinobots, so he lets them finish before he speaks.
"You're leaving out two key things, though. One - The fruit that was sustaining Nightscream had also made Optimus, Rattrap, and Blackarachnia all revert to a more primitive mental state. A better resolution might have been found, but that brings us to the second thing - Jetstorm and his drones showed up. If I didn't wreck that tree, the others would've been scrapped." Cheetor frowns. "It was better for Nightscream anyway. Even if we'd never met him, the Vehicons more than likely would have found and scrapped him eventually, anyway."
He stares at the tree in his lap for a bit. "While we did save him, it did still force him to become technorganic. It beats being dead, but things could have been handled a lot better."
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Shanodin
Major
The Chamberlain, Her Chivalrous Immensity, Lady Botanica. The Unyielding Vanquisher of Weed Killer
This is NOT her field of dreams
Posts: 700
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Post by Shanodin on Apr 18, 2011 11:49:25 GMT -5
Botanica nods in agreement with Prowl, "Yes, I believe our Optimus was pulled quite early on compared to our other folk from his reality."
"Is it really that hard a decision for him to have made, based on the teaching of your reality, Sentinel? Would your own leaders have not deemed them less that proper beings based on their forms, mentality, and origins? What choice would you have made in his stead?"
"And Cheetor," Botanica turns her appraising gaze on the cat, "Yes, I did not mention those things. I was curious as to if you would bring them up as your justifications, and you did. As for if it was better for Nightscream or not- we will never know."
"Just as we will never know if we could have avoided forcibly reformatting the entire planet and population," she adds softly as she turns back to her tree.
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Post by Sentinel Prime on Apr 18, 2011 14:00:26 GMT -5
So the 'bot who lectured Sentinel Prime, 'I just have something you never will - respect for my teammates,' is also the 'bot that ignored Prowl when Prowl said his magic ninja powers were telling him the Dinobots had sparks. Sentinel Prime growls, "That hypocrite." The pot may be calling the white gym sneakers black, but still! He feels... disappointed, weirdly.
Sentinel Prime listens to Cheetor now, frowning.
He answers Botanica after a bit of thought, "Optimus was always a... goofbot, honestly, playing willy-nilly with the rules, and he had the gall to lecture me that, 'I just have something you never will - respect for my teammates.' I find it... strange that he wouldn't have listened to Prowl." He rubs his temples. "No, disturbing. Unless that cranky old medi-bot of theirs was completely incompetent, checking for sparks shouldn't have been too difficult, if they'd cared enough to try. If they found sparks, then the course of action would have been clear - send the Dinobots back to Cybertron to learn from a teacher-bot and release them into the workforce. If they wanted, they could apply to the Autobot army after."
Note, Sentinel Prime is not factoring in what the Dinobots themselves might have wanted. Maybe they would have wanted to stay on Earth. That's not an option he gives. The only course he gives is what would be followed by normally decanted protoforms.
"Me? Well, I had a ninja-bot. I guess my Jazz could have told me the same thing. Didn't have an on-team medic, so checking for sparks would have been harder. Bag 'em with stasis cuffs, take them home, and let my Ultra Magnus decide what to do with them? My Perceptor probably would have wanted to... examine them."
Sentinel Prime's face contorts into a rather sour look. Swoop's a flying Autobot. His Perceptor would have been all over that in ways that are frankly frightening. He can't support taking anyone to his Perceptor now, but at the time... yeah, he would have.
"As for Cheetor, I... don't know? What would you have done if Nightscream had hated his reformatting so badly that he went over to work for Megatron just to spite you? No, uhm... what if your best friend did it?"
Sentinel Prime busies himself with trimming some more overburdened branches. If only he could snip away his own burdens so easily.
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Post by Prowl on Apr 19, 2011 20:39:29 GMT -5
Prowl is very pleasantly surprised at what Sentinel says. It wasn't something he ever expected coming from him. One side of his optics arch up as he looks carefully at Sentinel.
His opinion of the mech seems like it's starting to change. But only slightly. But he doesn't say anything out loud, best not to ruin the moment.
He leans down to do a bit of taking off some leaves, and then looks over at Cheetor, "It seems you did what was best at the time, but if you had more time, it might have been able to be resolved in a way that would have been safer for everyone. At least, it might have been. I wouldn't know as I was not there."
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